SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Most of us watching the Olympics from our couch at home can only dream about what it would be like to stand on the medal podium. But our next guest has lived it. Abby Wambach helped the U.S. women's national soccer team win a World Cup and two Olympic gold medals. But she tells Wild Card host Rachel Martin her version of success is about what comes after those big moments. Wild Card is our show where guests answer questions at random from a deck of cards, questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that shape how they see the world. Here's Rachel.

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RACHEL MARTIN: Round 1 - memories. First three cards - one, two or three. Pick a card.

ABBY WAMBACH: Two.

MARTIN: Two - when you were bored as a kid, where would your imagination take you?

WAMBACH: No joke. OK, so you know how when I was growing up, there wasn't women athletes to watch on television? It was just basically, you know, Michael Jordan.

MARTIN: Yeah.

WAMBACH: And so I saw him win a lot of championships and win after scoring those, you know, last-second points. And so when I would be bored, I would imagine a ball kind of coming in from the flank, from the sideline, into the box, and I would imagine myself scoring the goal in the last second.

MARTIN: Wow.

WAMBACH: And so when those moments started to actually come to me in real life, I had imagined it so clearly. And because of the imagining, I never stop believing that we could have that one moment come to fruition. So, to me - I mean, my wife, it drives her nuts because I'm such an optimist, and sometimes that can steer me awry. But, like, if you want something in your life, it's not just that you are ready for it. It's that this moment has already happened.

MARTIN: You've been there, yeah.

WAMBACH: It has already happened in your life.

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MARTIN: We're moving to Round 2.

WAMBACH: All right.

MARTIN: This is insights.

WAMBACH: Cool.

MARTIN: So three new cards - one, two, or three.

WAMBACH: Three.

MARTIN: Three - has your idea of success changed over time?

WAMBACH: Yes. When I was a kid, I was certain that I needed to not rely on other people. I think one of the things I feel most proud of is, like, this desire to have ownership of my life, to, like, really be responsible for myself.

MARTIN: But we're talking about success here. That feels like a pretty good definition for what a successful life looks like...

WAMBACH: Yeah.

MARTIN: ...Like, to be independent. So did that change at all, or has that remained a constant for you?

WAMBACH: Yeah, I think that the way that I think about it now as a parent - because I think it's easy to think about yourself - but the way that I would love my children to go into their life, like, the job of the parent is to make them believe that they can handle life on their own without us. And so my definition of success, I don't think it necessarily has changed. I think the context of my life has changed. For me, it's a feeling of self-esteem that I think that I determine my success by. How do I feel about myself today?

MARTIN: Yeah.

WAMBACH: Because I've had money. I've not had money. I've had high levels of success, and I know for certain when we watch the gold medal and the Olympics, the athletes that are standing on that top podium are going to feel really good about themselves. But that moment is fleeting.

MARTIN: Yeah.

WAMBACH: You have to wake up tomorrow and also feel good about yourself.

MARTIN: Right - without all the fanfare and the fancy medal, yeah.

WAMBACH: Yeah. And yeah, I think that having a gold medal is really cool. I think it's really cool. But let me tell you, I can't rely on being an Olympic gold medal-winner and having that be the thing that sustains me throughout my life 'cause it doesn't work. Things that we do in the past will not justify how we feel in the present. And so I think that my idea of success - it hasn't changed because I've always kind of held this belief. But I think my definition of what makes me feel good every day contextually and literally has changed throughout my life.

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MARTIN: Round 3, final round. OK, so this - we're getting into beliefs...

WAMBACH: OK.

MARTIN: ...How you make sense of the world, big-picture stuff. OK, three new cards - one, two or three.

WAMBACH: Three.

MARTIN: Are you comfortable with being forgotten? Oh, interesting.

WAMBACH: I am. I am. When I retired, Gatorade had a - they wanted to pitch me on a possible commercial shoot that they wanted to do for my retirement game. And as I was reading through the storyboards, I just started to, like, weep because there was something about my body and my heart that all of it just kind of came together in this moment. And the idea of this commercial was forget me. Because if I am forgotten, then I know that the game has grown, and the game is better. If I am forgotten, then somebody else has taken my place, and that is the natural order of the world. I believe that records are meant to be broken. I believe that growth, especially 10 years ago where we were with women's soccer, was required, was necessary, was not just possible but inevitable.

MARTIN: Yeah.

WAMBACH: And so I think that we all should live a life like that. And then in the end, if you are forgotten, to me, it means that you have done the right kind of work here to make the world a little bit better. And boy, the funniest thing about this is this rec league team that I was coaching five years ago, six years ago with my kid, we were warming up for the championship game, and one of her teammates - I was telling them about, you know, well, when I retired, and she said, wait, you played soccer?

MARTIN: (Laughter).

WAMBACH: And I said, yes. She said, oh, who did you play for? And I said, the United States of America. And she said, oh, do you know Alex Morgan? And I was like...

MARTIN: (Laughter).

WAMBACH: ...Oh, sheesh, we need to be careful what we wish for here, peeps. So, yeah. Forget me.

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MARTIN: Abby Wambach, what an incredible pleasure it was to be able to do this with you. Thank you.

WAMBACH: Same, same, same. Thanks for having me.

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DETROW: For an extended version of that conversation, follow the Wild Card podcast. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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