DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. NBC's "The West Wing" premiered 25 years ago, the same year that HBO premiered "The Sopranos." That year marked the beginning of a shift in power and quality from broadcast to cable TV, and "The West Wing" was one of the last shows from broadcast television to win the Emmy for best drama series. The show, which was unveiled near the end of the presidency of Bill Clinton, was a behind-the-scenes look at a fictional White House.
Aaron Sorkin, a young playwright who had written the stage and movie versions of "A Few Good Men," created the show. The stars of "The West Wing" included Martin Sheen as President Bartlet, John Spencer as the president's chief of staff and Allison Janney as his press secretary. At the actual White House recently, first lady Jill Biden welcomed the cast and creators of "The West Wing," saluting them for doing a show about politics and the White House that was smart, funny and, above all, hopeful.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
JILL BIDEN: Anytime we begin to slip into cynicism or apathy, we just have to remember Jed Bartlet's White House, a place where there are big blocks of cheese...
(LAUGHTER)
BIDEN: ...And everyone belongs, where you do good. That's the story "The West Wing" showed the nation.
BIANCULLI: Today we'll dip into our FRESH AIR archives and hear from both John Spencer and Allison Janney, but we'll begin with an interview with Aaron Sorkin. Terry Gross spoke with Aaron Sorkin in 2012, and they talked about the show's distinctive look, developed in part by the show's director, Tommy Schlamme.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: A lot of the dialogue in "The West Wing" became known as the walk-and-talk, where two or more of the characters would be talking to each other, exchanging strategy or whatever as they walk through the hall. And, you know, in reality, a lot of this dialogue would probably be - a lot of these conversations would probably be held behind closed doors as opposed to in the hallway. So how did the walk-and-talk come into being?
AARON SORKIN: I'll tell you exactly how. First of all, I don't write a lot of action. My first movie was "A Few Good Men," which was based on my first play, and there's a scene in the movie where Tom Cruise is in his car. He pulls his car over to the side - to the curb 'cause he wants to hop out and buy a copy of Sports Illustrated at a newsstand. He does. He hops out. He buys the copy of Sports Illustrated at a newsstand. He gets back in his car, and he drives off. That is my action scene. That's as close as I've come to writing an action scene.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SORKIN: And because there's very little of visual interest in what I write, visual interest has to be created. And it was created by Tommy Schlamme - my partner on "The West Wing," the principal director of "The West Wing," the guy who came up with the look for "The West Wing" - and it happened right off the bat in the pilot episode.
What I had written was a series of scenes in different rooms in the White House, all involving John Spencer who played Leo McGarry, the chief of staff. And Tommy came to me about two days before shooting began and said, listen. I want to walk you through something 'cause I'd like to try doing this in one, as it's called - in one continuous shot, using a steady cam that Leo - John Spencer - can go from this room into this room, do this thing here, stop at Josh's office, walk through that corridor, come down here, do this here, and finally we sneak a peek at the Oval Office, and we walk through here. And Tommy choreographed the whole thing, and that was the day the walk-and-talk was born.
GROSS: And so it became like an institution of the show if - that's probably the wrong word, institution - but...
SORKIN: No, but it...
GROSS: ...Hallmark of the show - trademark - signature of the show. How's that?
SORKIN: It did.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SORKIN: And again - and it was born because Tommy felt the need, and he was a hundred percent right that, you know, television, film, it is a visual medium, and you've got to create some kind of visual interest, and it's entertainment for your eyes.
GROSS: So there was a really funny parody of the walk-and-talk on "30 Rock," and you were in the scene.
SORKIN: Yeah, that's right.
GROSS: I want to play the scene, so let me give this setup.
SORKIN: OK.
GROSS: So Liz Lemon, played by Tina Fey, has just found out the show that she writes for is going to be put on hiatus. So she's applying for a writing position on a TV singing competition called "The Sing-Off," hosted by Nick Lachey...
SORKIN: Nick Lachey.
GROSS: ...Who became famous as a member of the boy band 98 Degrees. So while she's in the waiting room, waiting for this job interview, she's shocked to see you, Aaron Sorkin, waiting too. So here's the scene.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "30 ROCK")
TINA FEY: (As Liz Lemon) Do I know you?
SORKIN: (As himself) You know my work. Walk with me. I'm Aaron Sorkin - "The West Wing," "Few Good Men," "The Social Network."
FEY: (As Liz Lemon) "Studio 60."
SORKIN: (As himself) Shut up. Do you know Nick Lachey? I hear he doesn't even let you sit in the meeting. He just screams at you to see how you react.
FEY: (As Liz Lemon) Wait. You're not really applying for this job, right?
SORKIN: (As himself) Of course I am. You got to take work where you can find it, especially now. Our craft is dying while people are playing Angry Birds and poking each other on Facebook. What is poking anyway? Why won't anybody do it to me? I'm cool.
FEY: (As Liz Lemon) So it's really that bad out there. I mean, you're Aaron Sorkin. Speaking of Angry Birds, do you know how to beat 11-4? It's just a red guy and a green guy.
SORKIN: (As himself) The key is do not use the green guy as a boomerang.
FEY: (As Liz Lemon) Did we just go in a circle?
SORKIN: (As himself) Listen, lady, a gender I write extremely well if the story calls for it. This is serious. We make horse buggies, and the first Model T just rolled into town.
FEY: (As Liz Lemon) We're dinosaurs.
SORKIN: (As himself) We don't need two metaphors. That's bad writing, not that it matters.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Mr. Sorkin, Mr. Lachey will see you now.
SORKIN: (As himself) Mr. Lachey - huge fan. I have all your albums.
(SOUNDBITE OF DOOR CLICKING)
GROSS: That's so funny (laughter).
SORKIN: Yes. Well, it was a lot of fun to do. It's a great group over there.
GROSS: Did you write any of that yourself? Did you have any input?
SORKIN: Absolutely not. That script was written by Robert Carlock, who's great. I also had a chance to - I've played the jerk version of myself a couple of times, and I got to do it on "Entourage," too.
GROSS: So there's a line in there where she's given all your credits, and she says, Studio 60. And you say, shut up (laughter).
SORKIN: Yeah, that's actually the only tweak that I made because I thought that Robert Carlock, who wrote the script, was trying to be a little too respectful of me. So I just pitched the line to Tina, who then went over to Robert, and everybody there laughed. So Tina came back and said, yeah, let's do that.
GROSS: OK. And for people who don't get the joke, you had a show that premiered the same season that "30 Rock" did called "Studio 60 On The Sunset Strip." And like "30 Rock," it was a behind-the-scenes show about a sketch comedy show kind of like "Saturday Night Live." But yours was a drama and hers, you know, was a comedy. And a lot of people thought that hers was not going to make it and yours would, but it ended up being the other way around. So we've just heard you're very good at playing yourself. You used to play other people as well. You started off as an actor before you became a writer. Is that what you really wanted to do when you were growing up - was to act?
SORKIN: I think saying that I started off as an actor might be misleading. I - but there was...
GROSS: Should I say you start off trying to act?
SORKIN: Bah, I didn't even give it much of a try. I - when I was very little, all I wanted to be was an actor. And I acted in all the school plays, and I was the head of the drama club, and I acted in community theater. And then when I went to college, I auditioned for a conservatory program at Syracuse University and got a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in, of all things, musical theater. But I realized pretty early on that when everyone around me was learning how to act, for some reason, what I was learning was what a play was. And I, again, very early on, loved writing dialogue. I just loved writing it. And so when I came to New York, it was to be a playwright.
GROSS: So you got your B.A. in musical theater. You loved musicals.
SORKIN: BFA - I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree.
GROSS: BF - oh, OK.
SORKIN: Yes. I have absolutely no liberal arts background at all and really no higher education to speak of it all. Like I said, my four years of college was a conservatory training program in theater, where we weren't allowed to take that many credits - that many academic credits.
GROSS: Do people expect that you will know the great books, and actually, you don't?
SORKIN: Yeah. I am often mistaken for somebody who knows something, and I'm not. I create characters who know things. And I'm not just being self-deprecating. I think this is important. You know, the reaction to "The Newsroom" has been polarized. There are a number of television critics who did not enjoy themselves watching the first four episodes. There are a number of television critics who loved the first four episodes. And I think that the critics in the audience who are reacting as hostilely to the show as they are, part of the reason is they think that I'm showing off an intellect and an erudition that I don't have. And just to be very clear, I'm not pretending to have it. I know that I don't have it. I phonetically create the sound of smart people talking to each other. I'm not one of them. The characters I create would have no use for me.
GROSS: So we've established that you love musicals...
SORKIN: (Laughter).
GROSS: ...And that - and just going back for a step - and that you have a degree in musical theater. Are you a good singer?
SORKIN: I am awesome in the shower.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SORKIN: But that's - I think I'm a good singer. I don't think anybody else would say that I am (laughter).
GROSS: So I know for a while you did singing telegrams.
SORKIN: Yeah.
GROSS: What were the telegrams?
SORKIN: They were - I worked for a company called the Witty Ditty singing telegram company, and they would call you in the afternoon and say, you know, OK, I got a job for you. It's an anniversary. You're going to go to this fancy restaurant. Come here and get the lyrics. And it would just be set to the tune of - you know, of a famous song. And you'd have to walk into a fancy restaurant holding a big thing of balloons, and you're in a red-and-white striped jacket with a straw boater and a kazoo. And, you know, you're thinking, here's my parents' tuition money hard at work. And even the songs themselves - you know, they would change two words of the song. It would be like, (singing) rocky mountain high, happy birthday.
GROSS: (Laughter).
SORKIN: It was remarkably uncreative. And I even remember thinking, you know, is it OK if I maybe rewrite some of the song?
GROSS: (Laughter).
SORKIN: But I didn't want to insult the person who wrote the song.
BIANCULLI: Aaron Sorkin speaking to Terry Gross in 2012. Since then, he's created other series for television, including "Studio 60 On The Sunset Strip" and "The Newsroom." And he'd written or co-written such films as "The Social Network" and "Moneyball." After a break, we hear from one of "The West Wing" cast members, Allison Janney, who played White House press secretary, C.J. Craig. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF W.G. SNUFFY WALDEN'S "HALLS OF THE WHITE HOUSE")
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. We're marking the 25th anniversary of the Peabody Award-winning NBC drama series "The West Wing," a behind-the-scenes look at the inner workings of a fictional White House. Allison Janney won four Emmys for her performance on the show as White House press secretary, C.J. Cregg. She went on to appear in the Showtime series "Masters Of Sex" and co-star in the CBS sitcom "Mom." Terry Gross spoke with her in 2014.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: I think a lot of people first got to know you as C.J....
ALLISON JANNEY: Yeah.
GROSS: ...The press secretary on "The West Wing."
JANNEY: Yeah.
GROSS: Let's hear a scene from that. And this is a scene, where President Bartlet had MS, but he was not telling people about it. And in this scene, Oliver Platt, who plays the White House counsel, has learned that the president has MS and has been keeping it from the public. And he's trying to figure out who on the White House staff knew and has been helping in the cover-up and who didn't. So here he is questioning you about whether you participated in covering up that information.
JANNEY: OK.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WEST WING")
OLIVER PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Have you ever lied about the president's health?
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Should I have my lawyer here?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) I'm your lawyer.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) You're the president's lawyer.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) I'm the White House counsel, C.J. Have you ever lied about the president's health?
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) What did he tell you?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) I'm sorry.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) When did the president tell you?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Six days ago.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) And Josh?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Two days after that.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Toby?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Two days before he told me. C.J., have you ever lied about the president's health?
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) And Leo - he told more than a year ago.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Yeah.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) And I've had this for six hours now, so maybe giving me some room wouldn't be totally out of line. You know what I'm saying, Oliver?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) C.J., I'm going to have to ask you some questions. The less you can be pissed at the world for no particular reason, the better, I think.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) I don't know you.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) I'm sorry.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) I was told to report to you. I don't know you. You've been here, what?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Three months.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Three months. So why should I trust you?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Well, I don't care if you trust me or not.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Imagine my shock.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) I've got better things to do with my imagination.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) I think this is going really well so far, Oliver. It's almost hard to believe that four different women have sued you for divorce.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Well, you can do that if you want, C.J. I've been through it a couple of times with Josh and Toby, but sooner or later, you're going to have to answer questions.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Either to you or...
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) A grand jury.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Compelled by?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) A Justice Department subpoena.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Well, I have to tell you, it'll be the first time I've been asked out in quite a while. So...
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) It's entirely possible that the president has committed multiple counts of a federal crime to which you were an accomplice.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) That much has sunk in in the last six hours.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Has it?
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Yes.
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) So why don't you knock off the cutie-pie crap and answer the damn question.
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) What was the question?
PLATT: (As Oliver Babish) Have you ever lied about the president's health? What is your answer?
JANNEY: (As C.J. Craig) Many, many times.
Ooh, C.J.'s in trouble.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: That's my guest, Allison Janney, with Oliver Platt in a scene from "The West Wing." So I always wonder, when you do that kind of snappy-retort type of Aaron Sorkin dialogue, does it improve your ability to have witty retorts in real life and to have razor-sharp dialogue when you're speaking extemporaneously?
JANNEY: Oh, Terry, Terry, would that that were true.
(LAUGHTER)
JANNEY: No. Unfortunately, that was the biggest disappointment - that that just didn't just, you know, seep into my skin and my brain and I was able to just speak like Aaron Sorkin writes the minute I left that show. But no, I can't. I don't have that. I don't have that razor wit that C.J. had. Politics scared the crap out of me because I did not grow up in a family where we talked about anything really but, you know, pass the peas, and, do this. And, you know, we didn't really have political discussions at the dinner table. I didn't learn how to, you know, watch or, you know, listen to politics. And then to have to step into this world and really be an actress and really be playing someone that I had - I had no idea what I was talking about half the time. And I have to - you know, I'd study my lines and read them, like, going, what the hell am I talking about?
I learned a great deal doing that show, and I loved it, but I felt just really fish out of water. When we'd go to Washington and be - you know, go out to dinner, I'd meet, you know, all the former press secretaries and, you know, be sitting around with Dee Dee Myers and Joe Lockhart and talking. I just would just get so nervous. I wouldn't know what to ask them. So I felt a real pretender to the throne.
GROSS: So when you were young, when you were a teenager, I think you didn't want to be an actor. You were thinking more about being a figure skater.
JANNEY: Yes.
GROSS: But then you had...
JANNEY: Yes.
GROSS: ...A really bad accident and injured your leg.
JANNEY: You know...
GROSS: What happened?
JANNEY: I was 17, and I was at a party that my - friends of my parents were throwing. It was an outdoor party, and there were these sliding doors, some of them open, some of them closed, right by the band. And I just - I hit one of the windows. And it was - and sort of my - the lower part of my body, my right leg, went through, and then the glass kind of guillotined my right leg. And I was so embarrassed that I had hit the glass. I didn't know that it happened. I turned to the band, who had stopped playing, and I was like, play. Just keep playing. Keep playing. Keep playing. I was so embarrassed. And then I turned around and looked at everyone just, like, staring at me, and I was like, uh-oh.
It was like a Fellini movie, with all these people's faces popping in over my head and looking at me with, you know, cigarettes. And my older brother came in to - you know, someone was trying to put a tourniquet around my leg. And he shoved them aside and put my - held my leg up over my heart to keep - you know, so I could keep my leg. And, I mean, I may be going into too much detail here, but...
GROSS: Was your leg almost - was it at risk of amputation?
JANNEY: Yeah. I mean, I lost - well, first of all, I lost, like, three-quarters of my blood. I lost an artery and cut tendon. And it was - I was in the hospital for, like, seven, eight weeks. I missed my first year of college. You know, and after that, of course, I didn't really - I didn't skate for a very long time. It changed a lot of things about my life and sort of made me a little more fearful, I think, unfortunately, just afraid of mortality and losing - you know, things happening, you know?
GROSS: How did that figure, if at all, into your decision to act?
JANNEY: Well, it definitely took out the possibility of being a skater, and I wasn't that good anyway. I was graceful, but I'm too big. I couldn't. It was - it's such an athletic sport. And I was very graceful, and I could have been a nice dancer, maybe, but that went away, you know? And then I had to take a year off, 'cause I had recover and had all these skin grafts and things I had to go through. And then I went to Kenyon College, which is where I hooked up with - you know, my freshman year, Paul Newman, who went to Kenyon, came to direct the brand-new theater they had built there. And he came to christen it by directing the first play, and I managed to get in that. And then that sort started the acting ball rolling.
GROSS: How tall are you?
JANNEY: I am - you know, I say five-12. Ha-ha.
GROSS: (Laughter).
JANNEY: I'm definitely six feet. And in my heels, I'm six-three. Yeah.
GROSS: Now, how did that affect you as a teenager? And how did it affect you as a young actress when you were getting started?
JANNEY: Well, it was - you know, I was always - I went to a school with, like, you know, first through 12th grades, under 300 kids, a school called Miami Valley School in Dayton, Ohio. And I was just, you know, so tall. It wasn't until I went to college, to Kenyon College, that I, you know, started having my first date. So I was sort of a late bloomer in a lot of things, and I always felt that way. And I feel like my career started late, and I think it was because of my height and maybe some of my confidence issues.
But I, you know, was playing 40-year-old women when I was 20, when I was - you know? And I just - I didn't get considered for ingenue roles, or I just wasn't - I don't know. Maybe I just wasn't ready, or things started happening when I was - I think when I turned 38, I started to have a career. So, you know, I think my height probably did have something to do with it, but it's also helped me in certain parts. I think it's made me definitely more of a character actress, in terms of my love of doing comedy or being - you know, I get cast as either the smartest woman in the room or the drunkest woman in the room.
(LAUGHTER)
JANNEY: I think those are the two. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in between, but I do do well in getting those kind of parts, authoritative or completely crazy, which I love. I love doing - I love both of those kinds of roles.
BIANCULLI: Allison Janney speaking to Terry Gross in 2014. After a break, we'll hear from one of her "West Wing" costars, John Spencer, who played her boss, White House chief of staff Leo McGarry. And Justin Chang reviews "Megalopolis," the new film from Francis Ford Coppola. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
JANNEY: (SOUNDBITE OF W.G. SNUFFY WALDEN'S "HALLS OF THE WHITE HOUSE")
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Today we're looking back at the TV series "The West Wing," which is celebrating its 25th anniversary. The show was a behind-the-scenes dramatization of a fictional White House, and it was honored - with good reason - for being a political drama that was intelligent, idealistic and inspirational. Actor John Spencer played Leo McGarry, the president's chief of staff. Previously, Spencer was a regular on the show "L.A. Law," and he started his career as a teenager on "The Patty Duke Show." Terry Gross spoke to him in 2000, the year after "The West Wing" had premiered.
Here's a clip from "The West Wing." Martin Sheen plays the president. And in this scene, the U.S. is planning its retaliation after Syria shot down an American plane that was carrying U.S. officials, including the president's personal physician, whose wife had just had a baby. Plans are underway to blow up four Syrian military targets. The chief of staff thinks that's sufficient, but the president is arguing for more airstrikes.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WEST WING")
MARTIN SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) He had a 10-day-old baby at home.
JOHN SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) I know.
SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) We are doing nothing.
SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) We are not doing nothing.
SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) They destroyed...
SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) Four high-rated military targets.
SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) And this is good?
SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) Of course it's not good. There is no good. It's what there is. It's how you behave if you're the most powerful nation in the world. It's proportional. It's reasonable. It's responsible. It's merciful. It's not nothing - four high-rated military targets.
SHEEN: (As Jed Bartlet) Which they'll rebuild again in six months.
SPENCER: (As Leo McGarry) Then we'll blow them up again in six months. We're getting really good at it.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: How would you describe your character and how he's changed?
SPENCER: I think Leo is a man who's very impassioned about what he does. I think he's a politician in the best sense of the word - a caretaker, someone who is out for the ultimate good. I think he's a workaholic. I think he's a man who invests all of his passion and his time at the workplace and has very little left over for his family, which is why his marriage is in trouble. The evolution, I think, comes week to week. I think some of the rude awakenings of the amount of compromise that is necessary to run an administration, how you often have to give up A and B in order to achieve C and D - and I think that frustrates Leo. I think it frustrates Leo, often, the idealism of the inception of their ideas of what they want to accomplish, this administration, and the reality there of what they can accomplish. I think that often disappoints him.
GROSS: Let me ask you about something that happened in a recent episode. Your character is a former alcoholic...
SPENCER: That's right.
GROSS: ...Who hasn't touched - you know, hasn't touched a drink for several years. I forget...
SPENCER: Right.
GROSS: ...How many.
SPENCER: Eight.
GROSS: Recently, the fact that he had been to a rehab center was made public by a kind of new aide in the White House, someone who was very young. And was she an intern?
SPENCER: She was an intern.
GROSS: Yeah, she was an intern.
SPENCER: She worked...
GROSS: OK. Well, so she secretly makes this file public, you know...
SPENCER: Yeah.
GROSS: ...That you were in rehab.
SPENCER: She leaked it to a friend socially...
GROSS: Yeah. I think...
SPENCER: ...And who was in the opposite political party, and he took the football and ran with it.
GROSS: And it gets into the press - really big story.
SPENCER: Absolutely.
GROSS: Very difficult for the White House to handle.
SPENCER: Absolutely.
GROSS: One friend of yours suggests that you resign. He's no longer your friend, I think.
SPENCER: That's right.
GROSS: And then when the story is traced back to the intern, she's fired. She comes into your office 'cause you've invited her in. You talk it through, and then you tell her to keep her job. And I was thinking, I wonder (laughter)...
SPENCER: Yeah.
GROSS: ...If the chief staff would really say to the intern who leaked something like this, go ahead. Keep your job.
SPENCER: I read a thing in The New Yorker magazine where they felt that was one of the few elements of Aaron's writing on this show that they didn't totally buy - that we would hire this woman back. You know, that might not happen in real life. I had much less problem with it because I think it's a quick transition. I think it happens in the moment. And being in recovery myself for 10 years, I kind of have an intimacy with the rooms, with AA. And one of the precepts of the program is forgiveness.
And I think the turning point for Leo, which I had to find as an actor - I think it just - you know, it's a conversation. He plans to fire her. He asks her why she's done this. And in questioning why she did this, when she comes out with the fact that her father was an alcoholic and his irrationality and strange behavior was so aberrant to her, so horrifying that - this was the only other alcoholic she knew. And suddenly finding out that the chief of staff of the White House of the United States was also an alcoholic - her only point of reference was her old man, was her dad. And I can't imagine how horrific it must have been for her, thinking someone with these mood swings, someone who might act like this is in such a seat of power where people's lives could be affected.
And as she expresses that, I think myself as Leo have to realize, well, the motivation is a positive one. The result might have been horrible for me and for my friend, the president, and for our administration. But this woman - it was not kind of nasty, you know, water cooler gossip. It was someone who really feared that it would - could be very dangerous to have a man with this weakness or this problem in this important position. And when I see that and I kind of note that she has a love of the government and a love of its responsibility - feeling that she was well-motivated, I think I have to give her a second chance. And God knows my character has been given, through his life, a lot of second chances. So how can you get and not give, you know?
GROSS: Was the chief of staff character originally written as a recovering alcoholic, or was that aspect of his character written in after you got the part because of your own experience?
SPENCER: Yeah, good question and often asked me. The truth of the matter is it was not originally written that way. I have since, because I've been asked this question so many times, gone to Aaron and said, listen. How much did I - how much did my life influence you there? - because we've talked very rarely about it. I mean, I remember one time going into the sound stage, and I was yet struggling again with the cigarette - no cigarette thing. And we were talking about addiction. And I said, well, this is the last threshold for me, and this is the hardest.
And then I started talking about being in recovery. And I don't know if he knew about it before then or not, but it was a very light, casual conversation. And since the episodes have aired that cover this, I've been asked that question a lot because I'm not anonymous and people know that I'm in recovery. So it seems like the obvious question.
So I went to Aaron, and I asked him if my life influenced his desire to put the character that way. And he said, absolutely not. He said, you know, it was part of his creative imagination, part of his own life experience knowing people in recovery. And I triggered it off by saying I was in recovery, but he was not basing it on my life.
GROSS: What episode has gotten the biggest response? And do you find that Democrats and Republicans respond to either different storylines or different aspects of the story?
SPENCER: I think Democrats and Republicans - people's political point of view comes into how they respond to the episodes. When our first episode went on, a lot of pundits sort of said, ah, liberal, left-wing Democrat writer Aaron Sorkin writing a liberal White House, pro-left, anti-right. And then, of course, Aaron, in his great talent, surprised everyone, turned around and made the liberal, Democratic president want to bomb the Mideast after his friend went down in a plane. So we take everything on. He took on, you know, the Hollywood liberal agenda, also, you know, these moguls who throw these fundraisers with their own agendas. So no one's safe with Aaron. He's taken on the right, the left and the middle.
GROSS: How did you get the part as the chief of staff on "The West Wing"?
SPENCER: It's - I had just done another short-lived series for our executive producer John Wells, a thing called "Trinity" that was shooting in New York and was not well-received commercially. We couldn't get an audience. So we went off after nine episodes. So I really had a good time with that experience. My agent called me and said, I've just read a brilliant pilot, and I said, oh, no, not another hour drama. I just did that. And I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved again so soon with that because there's a great luxury to being able to do one or two films a year. You have time off in between. You can make your nut. You get to play more than one character. So I wasn't sure I wanted to kind of, you know, sign on for the big ride again.
And he said, well, read it. And I read it, and I'll tell you I got maybe a third into it, and I just thought, this is some of the most brilliant writing I've ever seen for television. And I loved the role. And that's when I decided I really want to go after this one. So I chased it down like a wild man. I really went after it. I worked it up. I read it with Aaron. And apparently, if I can take Aaron and Tommy's word for it, after I read for them, they saw no more Leos, and I was the first person cast. So that makes me feel very good. I didn't know that at the time.
GROSS: Now, were the other people cast with you to see if the chemistry would work?
SPENCER: We were sort of cast one at a time, I guess, as they found the people they thought best suited each of the roles. Aaron says that this is the first time in his career that he got his first choice for all the roles. So that's very nice.
GROSS: And when was Martin Sheen cast as the president?
SPENCER: Martin was cast - I believe he was one of the last people cast. And to start with, he was going to be recurring. He was only going to do about five or six of the 22 episodes. And then after we did the pilot, they reconsidered, and they thought, wDAell, we really just don't want to be talking about the president with the audience waiting to see him each week. So they asked him if he would, you know, sign on for the whole ride, and he was only too happy to. And here we are.
BIANCULLI: John Spencer speaking to Terry Gross in 2000 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF PETE ANTHONY'S "WEST WING SUITE")
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with John Spencer, who played White House Chief of Staff Leo McGarry on the NBC series "The West Wing." The Peabody Award-winning drama, which was respectful to both politics and the intelligence of its own viewing audience, is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year.
GROSS: In TV, you're best known for your roles on "LA Law" and "The West Wing." But your first recurring TV role was on "The Patty Duke Show"...
SPENCER: It certainly was.
GROSS: ...As Cathy's boyfriend, the British identical cousin.
SPENCER: The British identical cousin. I forget - what was the role called? Henry Anderson, I think, was the guy's name.
GROSS: You don't even remember.
SPENCER: Well, I was 16. I'm 53 now, so it was a while ago. Yeah. What a lucky stroke. It was one of the first jobs I ever did in the show business. And it was a lucky break. I mean, they were basically casting - what they saw is what they got. I had no training at the time. And I guess there was something in my personality that they thought suited that character, and they just hired the man to play the character the way they wanted. And that's what they got.
GROSS: Why don't you refresh our memory and describe the character?
SPENCER: He's kind of goofy. He was, you know, kind of a typical teenager in the '60s. I watch some of the reruns every once in a while, and I looked particularly tall and skinny to myself with very big ears and a kind of voice that cracked as it got up in the higher register. So it's almost at times, if I see that, like I'm watching a different person, you know?
GROSS: Were you in it from the first episode, or was the character written in later?
SPENCER: It was recurring. I was only on the first two seasons.
GROSS: Did she get a new boyfriend?
SPENCER: Cathy kind of played the field, as I remember.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: She was such a swinger. No, she wasn't.
SPENCER: No, she wasn't. The other one was. Do you remember the theme song?
GROSS: Oh, of course.
SPENCER: Yeah. I do, too.
GROSS: Why didn't you sing it? I'm not going to.
SPENCER: I can't sing it. I won't go near that. But it's amazing how many people do.
GROSS: Now, when - you were in high school when you got the role.
SPENCER: I was.
GROSS: Did...
SPENCER: I was - go ahead.
GROSS: Well, could you walk down the halls of your high school without people singing the song to you?
SPENCER: Well, at that point, I - when I was about 16, I left my New Jersey home and moved into New York City, much to my parents' chagrin. And God bless them for ultimately letting me do this, as petrified as it must have made them. Now as a 53-year-old man, I look back and realize the horror I must have put them through. And I was pretty rebellious, and I was pretty sure of what I wanted to do. I knew by 8 years old that I wanted to act. Why? Don't ask me. It just seemed a certainty for me in my mind.
So I went into New York, and I didn't know the first thing about anything, let alone how to break into this elusive business that I wanted to be a part of. So I got a job as a - I wasn't a waiter. They couldn't hire me as a waiter 'cause I was too young, and I didn't have working papers, so I was a bus boy. And then I found out when the summer was over that I had to go to school if I wanted to work 'cause I had to get things called working papers, and I needed that up to the point that I was 18. So begrudgingly, I sought out to go back to high school. I thought, you know, 16 - you can leave high school. I'll just never see school again. I mean, that's how intelligent I was at that point.
And so I enrolled in this high school called Professional Children's School - not like the "Fame" high school, the high school portrayed in "Fame," which was called the - really called the school of the performing arts. We were not taught craft things. We were not taught singing, dancing, acting. It was just academics, but it was academics for children, teenagers, high school students who had working lives. I was in school with Pinchas Zukerman, who at that time was a concert violinist - has since become a very famous conductor - famous ice skaters, ballet dancers - all of the New York City Ballet was in that school - actors. We had some rock singers. It was a very eclectic mix of teenagers.
GROSS: So your circle at the high school included ballet dancers, a soon-to-be-famous classical musician.
SPENCER: ...Liza Minnelli, Jennifer O'Neill.
GROSS: OK. So where in the ranking of everybody's aspirations was being on "The Patty Duke Show"? Was that seen as, like, having really made it and great work? Or did people look down on that? Like, where did that fit?
SPENCER: No, well, we were - it's a very interesting thing. I think first and foremost, we were teenagers. We were very concerned with what girl was wearing what and how she looked and who we wanted to date and, you know, cutting school and all the things that teenagers did, except that we had this other life in the workplace. It was not - there was no condescension concerning that. It was, oh, my God, you got a gig - how great, you know? - these little teenagers with a sort of professional actor outlook of, oh, my God, I got the job.
GROSS: Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.
SPENCER: What a great interview. I can see why people like your show.
BIANCULLI: John Spencer speaking with Terry Gross in 2000. He died in 2005. "The West Wing," which premiered in 1999, was one of the last TV series from a broadcast TV network to win the Emmy for outstanding drama series. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews "Megalopolis." It's the new movie from Francis Ford Coppola, who began working on it long before Aaron Sorkin began working on "The West Wing." This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF TOMMASO-RAVA QUARTET'S "L'AVVENTURA") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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