SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Hidden, though not all that effectively, in a lawsuit against TikTok, there are accusations that company executives have deceived the public about the social media app's effects on young people. One executive said TikTok could take the place of things like, quote, "sleep and eating and moving around the room and looking at someone in the eyes." Thirteen states and Washington, D.C., filed lawsuits against TikTok this week and quoted portions of what they said were internal company documents. Those were redacted - blacked-out at TikTok's request. But one of NPR's member stations got through the redactions and broke the story. To talk about it, we are joined by NPR tech correspondent Dara Kerr in Oakland, California, and Kentucky Public Radio's Sylvia Goodman in Louisville. Hey there.
SYLVIA GOODMAN, BYLINE: Hello.
DARA KERR, BYLINE: Hello.
DETROW: Sylvia, I want to start with you. Let's just start here. How did you get this material?
GOODMAN: So I started by working with our enterprise Capitol reporter, Joe Sonka. And this complaint was filed publicly, in online court filing systems, like it was in states across the country. And frankly, I didn't expect it to be a big story at first. There was plenty of reporting out there in states where attorneys general had already filed. And I noticed these heavy redactions right away, as I'm sure everyone did. All it took was good old copy and paste. I copy and pasted all of the information from underneath the redaction - all the text was still intact - and put it in a new document and read through all of it.
DETROW: Dara, though, let's talk about the story. Tell us about some of the top findings in these documents.
KERR: Yeah, I first want to get to some context. We know that many aspects of social media is not good for us and that we should limit the time we spend on the apps. And today we're talking about TikTok, but we've seen other social media companies come under fire for a lot of the same issues. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat - they've all faced congressional hearings and lawsuits. What they've shown is that social media is especially detrimental for kids, and that's because kids are more impressionable and, according to the internal documents quoted in the TikTok lawsuit, are easy to get hooked on the app.
The complaint shows TikTok executives speaking rather candidly about a whole raft of dangers for kids. One internal study shows that all it takes to get addicted is 260 videos. And remember, TikTok videos are short, and people tend to scroll through them. So you could really watch 260 videos in less than an hour.
And TikTok has also touted these time-limit tools that parents can use to control how much time their kids spend on the app. But the unredacted complaint alleges that these tools are basically worthless. The complaint has one executive saying that they're, quote, "a good talking point," but, quote, "not altogether effective."
DETROW: Wow - a good talking point.
KERR: Yeah.
DETROW: A lot of the focus in recent years on the potential harms of social media has had to do with body image and how consuming it makes us feel about body image. Was there information in the documents related to body image?
KERR: Yes, there definitely was. There was this focus on TikTok's beauty filters. And what those beauty filters do is you can overlay them over your face and make yourself look younger, thinner, with - have bigger eyes, fuller lips. And these filters have gotten a lot of blowback recently for creating unrealistic beauty standards, which can lead to lower self-esteem. Internally, it was clear TikTok knew this. The complaint shows employees suggesting that TikTok label these filters and stress the importance of positive body image, but that never happened.
And meanwhile, in another internal report from the complaint, TikTok analyzed its main video feed and saw, quote, "a high volume" of what it called not attractive subjects. Kentucky's investigators found that TikTok then retooled its algorithm to amplify users that the company deemed beautiful. So these kinds of actions can just feed into the whole problem of low self-esteem in kids.
And the complaint also shows that TikTok was looking to specifically hook younger kids and kids in rural areas. Sylvia, you saw some of that in the material that you uncovered in Kentucky, right?
GOODMAN: Yeah, so obviously, this was a complaint filed specifically by Kentucky's attorney general, and so large parts of it focused on specific documents that reference Kentucky. And internal reports in the complaint appear to break down the preferences and demographic data of new users classified as, quote, "country rural." Kentucky's attorney general alleged it showed a particular interest in our state, but it also revealed how information is collected on really specific groups of people, including based on age and location, all the way down to the county level. The internal documents identified top preferences among new rural users, including baseball, Walmart, boat and beer.
Another document cited in the lawsuit identifies powerful federal lawmakers and listed TikTok accounts it thought could persuade them of TikTok's value as part of the company's efforts to win over said lawmakers. That includes Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, listing one potential interest as, for example, Kentucky small businesses and their accounts.
DETROW: Dara, what has TikTok had to say about all of this?
KERR: TikTok objected to our reporting on these documents. And this is the first time reporters have really been able to see into some of the inner workings and thoughts at the company, and TikTok has his track record for being secretive. A spokesperson told us that the attorney general's complaint cherry-picked misleading quotes and that it used outdated and out-of-context documents. He said all of that misrepresents TikTok's commitment to community safety. And keep in mind, all of this is information in a lawsuit against TikTok.
DETROW: Right. There was a development in the case yesterday. Sylvia, what was it, and what might be happening next?
GOODMAN: So after our initial reporting, the attorney general did move to seal the complaint, citing confidentiality agreements, and the judge accepted that motion. TikTok also wants this out of the public eye, as we've noted, and each lawsuit will unfold individually through state courts. And so we may see different strategies and outcomes depending on the state we're looking at. There's a chance, for example, that some states settle. They agree to, you know, some changes in the algorithm, maybe, or paying fines. But some attorneys general have definitely expressed interest in taking this to trial. And if nothing else, I think we can be confident that this is going to take a very long time.
DETROW: That is Kentucky Public Radio's Sylvia Goodman as well as NPR's Dara Kerr. Thanks to both of you.
GOODMAN: Thank you.
KERR: Thanks, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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